DenverInfill Blog

O well lookie there. Portland has a Union Station too...who woulda thunk. ;)
 

I am a huge proponent to streetcar on the 16th St Mall. Not only is it a nod to the past, but will also help class up the mall a bit.
 

unfortunately, the idea of connecting Broadway Station and the 16th St. Mall was strongly opposed by certain business interests; i don't know the full story, but many believe even the compromise notion of bus-rapid-transit to be politically dead; on the other hand there is still a contingent of more visionary people who would stand up for the idea, especially if it were a street car (the BRT & light rail concepts were "express" lines that would have served mostly suburban commuter and not the Broadway neighborhoods and businesses)

among the concerns i recall hearing were loss of parking along Broadway and intensity of use of residential portions of Lincoln
 

I wholeheartedly and completely agree with you! Streetcar is the way to go for 16th Street Mall!
 

Getting folks from Union Station down the 16th/17th spine of downtown will be THE issue post FasTracks. The Mall shuttle obviously can’t handle it; we’ll need longer vehicles. Honestly, I think that spine between DUT and Civic Center is the one spot in Denver that could really support a subway (sending the LRT trains through rather than terminating them at DUT). Unfortunately that seems like a pipe dream. A streetcar, OTOH, is totally implementable. So go, streetcar!

Ambivalent about the pavers, though. If the surrounding urbanism is good enough no one will notice what the street is made out of.
 

Street cars on 16th would be great. I also support street cars/light rail along both Colfax and Broadway/Lincoln, and, even, Colorado. This kind of investment is important for the future of Denver.
 

i agree with the railcars. Off subject, When are you gonna update the "big picture" map ?? i want to see all the new building proposals
 

What's the advantage of street car over buses? They look cooler I'll grant you. But it seems like a lot of money.
 

It seems like if 16th is so well known and well liked, why ruin it. To make it all look the same would mean tearing out all the great trees for just a little gain. I don't have a problem with street cars, but leave 16th street alone.
 

I took an urban planning course from a prof who was involved in the original mall project. At the time, he lobbied hard for concrete instead of stone. His logic: why spend so much on something that will be covered with gum and dirt anyway? Of course he's right about the dirt and gum that hides those stones these days, but I personally still like them. They are critical to making it feel like a distinct place.

Also, a subway was apparently considered back then as well, but it was judged too expensive. It's probably even more true today.

I agree that some improvements are inevitable after fastracks. It would be nice if they were done before the crowding problems happen.
 

So if a street car system was put in on the mall and linked directly to the one for Colfax and so on, would that mean that the street cars on the mall be subject to a fare?
 

These days, concrete can be made to look like stone, brick or otherwise given texture and color. It doesn't have to look like the pavement used on I-25. I would think that would be an option in the short term and maybe longer term, unless there's some reason, "fancy" concrete couldn't be used on the 16th Street Mall.
 

I have seen the aesthetic things that can be done with concrete, such as stamping and colored placements, and I'm sure that it could be incorporated relatively cheaply. RTD spend a lot of money helping that company create the new hybrid mall shuttles, which are larger and quieter than the old models. It seems silly to put in a streetcar and abandon the new buses as an alternative to the pavers problem when there are other much cheaper alternatives.
 

>What's the advantage of street car over buses?
Streetcars:

1)Have higher capacity than buses. Not only does that mean they can carry more people in real terms, but since one rail vehicle with one driver carries many more people than a bus, and since streetcars can be coupled, the cost to operate per rider is lower for streetcars than buses (assuming high enough ridership, which there is in this case).

2)Run on electricity rather than oil. Electricity is not only cleaner, but with oil prices continuing to skyrocket, the long term cost savings are potentially enormous.

3)Have a better image. Many middle class Americans look down on buses as “loser cruisers”, but are willing to ride trains.

4)Are MUCH more comfortable to ride. It is simply a fact that trains run much more smoothly than buses. This isn’t frequently brought up, but it’s a big reason why people have such negative opinions about buses. Gliding along a rail is noticeably smoother than rumbling along on big tires over rough streets.

5)Rail tends to spur positive real estate investment. Streetcars, unlike buses, can be used as tools to transform underperforming areas.

6) Streetcars have a proven track record. Toronto has the highest per capita transit ridership in the US or Canada (yep, even higher than New York), and guess what - it's also the one city that kept much of its original streetcar infrastructure. It's not a coincidence.
 

Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. I don't understand the desire to get rid of the 16th St medians because that is where much of the life is... chess tables, movable chairs, fountains, vendors , etc (and trees!). Is this code for getting rid of the undesirables? Skyline Park was destroyed with such revisionist thinking. If we must, then we can shave off a few feet of the median so that the sidewalks can be expanded.

Also, the fact that 16th St is meandering (not straight) is a good thing. That little variance helps break up the mall into different rooms.

Please don't remove the granite pavers in this most important streetscape downtown. Concrete is not the same!

What we need to do is decide if streetcars are the way to go and then rebuild the mall largely as it is now but with the proper foundation for the pavers.

I'd prefer streetcars and agree with what beyonddc said. I live in East Denver just off Colfax and feel left off the rail bandwagon... Let's get streetcars on Colfax!

As to the streetcar fare downtown, we could do what Portland has done and create a zone downtown where trips starting and ending within it are free.
 

the mall seems to work pretty darn well....except that they should have stops on every-other block rather than every block.

i can't see the value in reinvesting tons of money into a street that works well now...why not invest that money into a colfax, broadway, 38th, or federal blvd. starter line for streetcar? adding 16th in at a later time would be easy enough at that point...

also - this brings up the additoinal circulator through downtown that connects to DUS and Civic Center Station.....initial plans are calling for an 18th street route - but this is a BAD idea...a few reasons:

1) it competes way too much with 16th street shuttle

2) it creates a complicated one-way couplet routing (simple sells...especially in transit ridership)

3) it won't encourage nearly as much ridership as a route that pushes north a few streets into the burgeoning area north of downtown.

I'm hoping that Mark Najarian and the crew down at PW will re-open this process and listen closely to public input.

A circulator LOOP that integrates 16th and 20th street (once you get out of lodo) is a much better option for the following reasons:

a) encourages development along the north end of DT which is poised for major growth

b) it enables the possiblity of a second, counterbalancing retail corridor in DT plus greatly increased residential density

c) it would put EVERYBODY in the downtown area...from 14th Street all the way to 22nd Street within just TWO short blocks of a transit loop.
 

It's time to get rid of the shuttles.
Even with their own ROW they have a hard time keeping up with demand of the daily rider.
DT is moving past it's 25 year old vision of when 16th street was first envisioned.
It's also getting to a point where having transit on the mall is kind of dangerous because the sidewalks are so full. Streetcars or other improvements should happen out side of 16th, allow 16th to be ped only. Make rapid trans changes on 15 and/or 17th.
 

^ that's a great idea...but i'd say put the loop on 17th and 21st....so everybody from 14th to 24th would be within just THREE blocks of a shuttle...
 

Most of these comments seem reasonable, except for the notion that 16th Street ain't broke. One block away from the prosperity of 17th Street, good businesses fail to thrive. Too many spaces are vacant, or are occupied by purveyors of cheapness, some of which we need, but, enough with the souvenirs already. Buses can't draw tourists. Streetcars may. Going a step further: wasn't 16th Street originally served not by streetcars, but by old-fashioned cable cars? Those would pique the interest of far more tourists and other spenders than our granite pavers ever will. And cable cars would provide welcome ventilation in summer, when many of us on the shuttle are diffusing our most unpleasant fragrances.
 

Lots of ideas for the transit, but no ideas on how and who is gonna pay for it. If I had to pay for riding on the mall I would rather walk and remove the shuttles completely.
 

I'm sure Ken is aware of this, but given the number responses, some of you might be interested in this:

Reconnecting America & The Sea Side Institute: Denver Streetcar Workshop
Join the staff of Reconnecting America and noted streetcar practitioners on Thursday, Sept. 27, for a series of streetcar workshops at the L2 Church (1477 Columbine St., Denver, Colo., 80206). Participants will be privy to in-depth discussions on the importance of streetcar-oriented development and its benefits. Experts from across the country will present up-to-date information, linking transportation investment and development.

Streetcars promote active environments and street life, thereby creating neighborhoods where people like to see and be seen. They serve as image-makers, helping to define a neighborhood and enhance its appeal by providing an added amenity and attraction. So climb aboard! It's time for a streetcar renaissance!

General Registration is $75. The first 100 participants will receive a copy of the Streetcar Book (provided by Reconnecting America). For further details, contact The Sea Side Institute at 850.231.2421.
 

I'm for streetcars, but I think the design by Modern master I.M. Pei's office ought to be respected, for the simple reason that the other two Pei designs in downtown Denver--Mile Hi Center (whatever its name is now--I've lost track, but I'm talking about the 17th & Broadway building with the ugly Philip Johnson carbuncle on its north side) and Court House Square (a.k.a. May-D&F/Denver Hilton, now, but not for much longer the Adams Mark)--have been essentially destroyed. Changing the character of the Mall would be three for three. Pei may not quite be in the same league as Frank Lloyd Wright, but his designs are good, and worth preserving. Surely all it would take is replacing the shuttle lanes with streetcars, and, as Ken suggested, filling the space between the tracks with pavers in the same pattern (technical question: what happens when streetcar lines have to cross light rail lines?).

Why does the Mall have two different block designs? The central portion, from Tremont to Arapahoe, is symmetrical because when the Mall was planned this section of 16th Street was still a viable retail area, and the merchants were concerned about having free access to their storefronts--so that's what they have, sidewalks unencumbered with benches or other obstacles, save planters. For the same reason the trees for these blocks are locusts, which have light foliage that does not impede the view of store signage.

The asymmetrical blocks, from Broadway to Tremont and from Arapahoe to Market, are designed that way because at the time the Mall was planned (and still today) there wasn't much in the way of retail activity. It was thought that the wider northeast sides would be good for crowd-gathering activities (buskers, etc.) and sidewalk cafes. The trees were red oaks, with thicker leaves, to provide contrast with the locusts. Unfortunately, recent re-plantings in these blocks have tended to be locusts, destroying the intended effect. And I do wish they'd remove that ugly, cheesy, buffalo herd in front of the Barclay, but that's getting off topic.

The Pei design is not the original--in the early or mid-1970s the Chicago firm C.F. Murphy (later Murphy/Jahn) designed a shorter mall--about five blocks long--and each block had its own character, like Boulder's Pearl Street. Pei's firm was brought in when the mall turned into a federally-financed transportation project rather than a scheme to revitalize the city's retail district.
 

Chris - what store do you think you could drop on 16th street? The area of downtown is just now bringing in tier 1 Conventions (5000 to 40000) attendees on a regular basis and residents are returning to downtown. These things will cause different stores in 16th, but it takes more time than 2 years. 16th isn't broke and is the one thing that gets consistant compliments from convention goers, which will bring them back and continue to raise the level of stores that can servive on 16th. I think street cars would enhance the feel of the mall, but not a redisgn.
 

I'd prefer to see transit removed from 16th altogether, as joeindt suggested. I think the idea of a streetcar circulator that runs up 15th and 17th is an excellent one. It would allow for more room on 16th, and it would bring more pedestrians and business to 15th/17th and the cross streets. Having these downtown streetcars tie in to a larger city-wide network is really what is needed.
 

Anon 9:09, I agree! Go ahead and put streetcars on the Mall, but don't take away the medians! Or just have 16th be completely transit-free. These new ideas to change the 16th Street Mall could almost totally destroy what sets downtown's #1 attraction apart from all the other regular street. First: the granite pavers. They give the Mall so much more beauty, and concrete would be so cliche! And second, the medians have trees, benches, fountains, flower pots, etc., things that make 16th more pedestrian friendly. We need to think carefully about what we want the heart of downtown Denver to look like...
 

The transportation component of the mall is a large part of its success, trolleys could make it better, removing the transportaion component would be a huge mistake and isn't on the table anyway.
 

Street cars? Why spend a hundred million or more just to have a cheap train run up and down the 16th st. mall when we already have buses that are doing just fine? The city of Denver has a many, many more pressing needs than building a trolley.
 

While the Mall was under construction, the Downtown Denver Partnership, seeking to save on construction costs, decided to use pavers thinner than recommended by I.M. Pei. It was covered in the Denver Post (around 1980-82?), if someone would care to look it up on microfiche.